 Really Bad Table Manners.jpg) Posted by Christie Kelley Oct 24 2012, 1:00 am
All of my books seem to involve someone behaving badly at the dinner table. While I should probably explore th Just how realistic is the depiction of a medieval banquet with burly men at the table belching, scratching themselves in rude places and throwing bones to the dogs on the floor? Probably pretty accurate if you believe that society doesn’t come up with a prohibition until someone’s already done the thing being prohibited. A wildly popular etiquette manual published in 1530 admonishes those sitting at a banquet to “not throw bones or similar left-overs under the table to litter the floor.” If you have to tell people not to, do it, someone was doing it. The next sentence in the manual, On Good Manners for Boys, by the Dutch theologian The fact that manuals like this existed and that they went through so many printings tells us that times were changing. Men might have still been throwing bones on the floor and scratching their crotches during dinner, but some of them were beginning to think that maybe they shouldn’t be. A French guide to courtly behavior written at about the same time as Eramus’s book lists as one its first rules “When in Company, put not your Hands to any Part of the Body, not usualy Discovered.” And when eating, not only could men no longer scratch the parts of the body “not usually discovered,” they weren’t supposed to scratch at all. “Being Set at meat,” the French guide continues, “Scratch not neither Spit Cough or blow your Nose except there’s a Necessity for it.” (In case a banquet attendee wondered about the appropriate way to blow the nose, Eramus devotes a couple of paragraphs to nostril maintenance in his manual.) Let’s return to the banquet table. To “set the table” means to literally set up boards on trestles to make a surface for the food to sit on. What about place settings? Guests had no need to worry about which fork to use first, since most Europeans did What about the belching? Neither of the guides I examined either condemns or condones the behavior. Does that mean it wasn’t happening? I will let any of you who have dined with members of the male sex make that determination for yourselves. I can only assume it was not yet considered an undesirable behavior. Erasmus o What do you think the women and girls were doing while the men were belching and throwing bones on the floor? Were they there but simply not worthy of mention? Did they only eat with the men on special occasions? Or did they simply have enough sense to eat some place without the scratching, belching and bone tossing? And is that why we still have “man caves” today? Tweet Comments65 thoughts on “Really Bad Table Manners” |
  
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ROFL! I LOVE it, Kate! I imagine that depending on the culture, sometimes women and children were relegated to other rooms/tables, and I imagine given the admonishments required, maybe that would have been a more civilized place to eat
Of course, some of us women and definitely kids do also scratch, belch, and toss bones 
Hee!! Thanks for sharing some of your oh-so-fascinating research!
Is Change of Address a stand-alone story? Can you tell us a little about it?
“Change of Address” is a stand alone story. I started with a premise that my critique partners (including Christie!) immediately recognized from Jane Austen’s Sense and Sensibility. A widow and her daughters are forced to move from their stately home into reduced circumstances – but this time I made it happen just before Christmas. And then they meet the new neighbors and it’s nothing like Sense and Sensibility after that. For one thing, I don’t think anyone in Jane Austen’s books throws food at the dinner table…
Fedora, congrats (?) on having the Golden Rooster with you today. Mind you, he’s been with Helen lately, so he will be dead rotten!
Also, I hope you don’t have any Halloween candy laying about. You know how he is around chocolate…
Congrats on grabbing the GR, Fedora! LOL, there are a lot of kids who do the scratch/belch thing!
Hey Fedora! He’s back with his “other” love! You! I’m betting he’s put on a pound ot two, given that he’s been hanging out at Helen’s the last few days. Hes’s been robbing the TimTam basket!!
Hi Kate and Christie,
I have no idea what we ladies were doing, maybe holding in our burps and making sure our elbows weren’t resting on top of the table. My cousin’s husband is pretty strict about table manners. He had to teach his niece and nephew a little decorum, chewing with their mouths closed and no shoveling of food into their mouths.
Jane, if he was able to do that, he is far ahead of the crowd. All males – even young ones – are quite resistant to table “rules”, in my experience.
Amen, Caren!
It’s nice to see kids with good table manners. My oldest does okay but I’m still working on the younger one.
Kate, what fun! I always think of Henry VIII chucking chicken bones over his shoulders as played by Charles Laughton when I read stuff like this. Actually I suspect like now, there are people who have finesse and people who don’t. I’d love to hear more about the book if you get a chance to tell us!
Anna, I’m glad I’m not the only one with that image stuck in my head.
I have that one too, and I think we all three need to go to Medieval Times together sometime and chuck a few turkey bones ourselves to dispel the image. SNORK!!
Actually, Jeanne, did you ever see an old cartoon called Rocket Robin Hood. The Sheriff of Nottingham did that too! Clearly Charles Laughton has much to make up for! Hey, I’d love to do a medieval banquet with you, m’dear!
Anna, I can see the same thing. I doubt Henry had great table manners but who knows maybe he did. Change of Address is a great story!
Thanks for livening up my morning with a good laugh, Kate! (No belching so far!) I should imagine that the women and children were relegated to another room to have meals. Probably fortunate as that way they could avoid being hit by flying chicken bones and having some burly, scratching man belching in their ear!
Carol, being in another room doesn’t sound so bad considering the mores of the time, does it?
Carol, the women probably preferred being in a different room!
Seriously, I would have MUCH preferred being in a differend room! hahaha! Can you imagine how they smelled? I could probably handle the burping and scratching – I do live in the Testosterone Zone now – but the smelly Ive-been-at-sword-practice plus the food? Urggggg.
Of course, since I have dogs the bone thing would – haha – fly right past me. SNORK!
I’m kind of assuming that the men were waited on hand & foot and the women got the scraps left over.
Not much has changed either.
Yeah, it really hasn’t….
Hi Kate and Christie
Loved this post I have read a lot of medievals and the highborn Ladies would share a plate with their men sometimes but I would assume that most of the other woman and children were waiting on the men and eating the scraps or grabbing something to eat in the kitchen first LOL I am so glad table manners have improved over the years
Have Fun
Helen
Helen, that does seem likely, doesn’t it? Manners have definitely improved, but if table manners were left to men for a few years, I’ll bet they would devolve quickly!
LOL, Caren. I believe you are right!
What do you think the women and girls were doing while the men were belching and throwing bones on the floor? Were they there but simply not worthy of mention? Did they only eat with the men on special occasions? Or did they simply have enough sense to eat some place without the scratching, belching and bone tossing? And is that why we still have “man caves” today?
I think men in those days men were kept in one room where they congregated to eat and women were gathered in another room to ‘do what women do’… like needle point and tapestry… all girly stuff. I’d love to see a story or movie where women are included in what men do; just to show we can scratch ourselves in unsavory places and chew on bones just like them
Mozette, I think you’re right. The women were often found in the solar, working on their tapestries or whatever. I do like stories (okay, it’s mostly movies) that inject a bit of feminism into a centuries-ago tale. I can’t imagine there were no women who rebelled against their place in society, no matter their station. While it would never have been easy for a woman like that, I feel confident they existed.
The trick is figuring out how to tell such a story without the heroine getting killed.
I wrote a sci-fi fantasy where all the people of the kingdom – no matter what their station – were to be taught hand-to-hand close combat in case war broke out and they were invaded; and the invasion came close to home…. well to their villages, and they had to defend themselves without the King’s Army around. This was so they weren’t taken prisoner.
Even the people of the royal family knew some sort of sword-play to defend themselves during these times as well. It only made sense to me as a creator of my worlds that my people weren’t useless to their King.
Actaully, Eramus tells men they’re not supposed to chew on bones, either. They are supposed to hack pieces of meat off the bone with their table knives. There’s a lot of knife etiquette in his guide, so maybe with all the drinking and knives, it would be better to be in a separate room drinking and doing needlepoint. At least then any potential assailants would only be armed with needles and scissors.
Being a suspense writer, I could work with needles and scissors too! hahaha! However, I think you’re right, they were probably far, far safer out of the fray!
Thanks so much for having me here today! “Change of Address” and a lot of my other stories are set in the Regency period and I was a little tired of delving into the intricacies of early 19C. English manners so I thought it might be fun to explore something different. After all, while society changes, people don’t. I know that bones still get thrown on the floor in my house when my son has his friends over to watch football and they fight over a plate of chicken wings.
Ha! Kate, I love a great story no matter the time setting. Regency is much-beloved, but I also adore Victorian and medieval stories. I’m looking forward to Change of Address!
As to the chicken bones, this should surprise no one with male children. Actually, I could see that happening with my daughters, as well.
My daughter has always had worse manners all around than my son. Eramus should have written a special guide just for her!
I’m thinking there is a culture where you are supposed to burb/belch after a meal as a compliment to your host… Some guy thought that one up, I am sure!
Your new book sounds wonderful! congrats!
I seem to remember hearing something about that in connection with an Oriental culture, possibly Japan. Or was that slurping tea? And come to think of it, that memory may be tied to an episode of the Brady Bunch! I wish my brain had some sort of footnote function where I could rate my memories in terms of source and likelihood of accuracy!
Oh, wouldn’t that be great!? I’d love to have that footnote function too. I’m always remembering the gist of a study or an article and forgetting the title, time frame, author, and even where/when I read it.
Footnote function. I love that!
A friend of mine told me she was in the middle leading a historic walking tour when she started to repeat a story she’d always told and then suddenly wondered where she’d gotten it and whether it was true. She referred to herself as a “Spongebob Historypants” just absorbing everything she heard and never remembering where it came from. I could immediately identify!
Yes, Cate, in many Eastern cultures, belching is a compliment to the chef and slurping is considered polite.
“Change of Address” is actually not out until November 8, and I just realized I have virtually nothing about it on my website, so here’s a link to the publisher for more info about it (alas, they make no mention of anyone’s table manners in the book blurb)
http://www.jasminejade.com/p-10427-change-of-address.aspx
BTW, CONGRATS!!!
Welcome to the Lair, Kate! What a fun post!
Funnily enough, the men in our family are all sticklers for good table manners! Elbows off the table, don’t slurp your drink and eat with your mouth closed are regular refrains! Being male, though, the belches always slip in. Somehow, they don’t see the connection LOL.
Forgot to say that I’m sure the women and children ate separately. Depending on the time period, they’d have served up the men’s food, then retired to eat their own. I remember in my childhood that the sexes eating separately still happened in certain situations, both on the English side and the Persian side.
I do wonder if it was different for royalty or nobility or for special occasions. And while they were eating separately, did the women have any better manners? Both of us have observed males in our own families with better manners than the females (at least in my house at least)
Hi Kate! Welcome to the Lair!
I am LOL about this fabulous post. Being the lone female in a houseful of males, table manners are always an issue. And for some reason, breaking the manner rule is always hysterically funny to all concerned. Snork! If we’re eating at the table and someone burbs it becomes this item of hilarity. Don’t know why…the lure of the forbidden? Ha!
As I said before, I think I’d have been much happier eating away from teh men, given the dearth of manners in that era. Of course, the dogs would have had to come in the kitchen with me. hahahah!
I can’t imagine the dogs would object to being in the kitchen! As for the lure of the forbidden, my husband’s family (generally much better behaved than my own) has always found flatulence highly amusing. The etiquette manuals I looked at said while boys are sometimes advised to restrain themselves, such practice could prove injurious to the health. So I guess it is not a laughing matter!
Heehee. I’m sure at some point my boys would use that arguement as to why it should be allowed! Ha!
Jeanne, I feel your pain. Nothing but boys, even the cats are boys. I do enjoy those few times when I get to eat alone (or with my girlfriends)!
Welcome, Kate! Your new book sounds wonderful, & as for table manners, I have to admit, I came from an all-girl household. I was in college before I ever lived with boys & man was it an eye opener.
Sharing a bathroom? Yikes.
Now I adore & appreciate men as a whole & individually, and I share my table with them happily. But I make my husband clean the bathroom.
I can share a bathroom with my husband. But my son (16) has a bathroom that should be declared a Superfund Cleanup Site by the EPA.
Susan, be glad you have girls. Having a boy in a bathroom is even worse than having a grown man. Friends of mine with multiple boys pretty much have Do Not Enter policies about the boys’ bathroom. My poor brother, having FOUR older sisters, was trained to clean up after himself. Seriously.
He can also do awesome-looking highlights (the pull-through-the-cap kind), but that’s a whole other story…
I am so thankful that is one area the boys are pretty good. Seat is always down and mostly clean.
From my own Medieval research, I can tell you that eating utensils were not provided, you had to bring your own knife and spoon. Sometimes cups and bowls would be provided, sometimes not. Unless you were in a noble house, there weren’t plates, either; you ate your meat off a thick slice of bread called a Trencher, thick enough that when you cut the meat it wouldn’t cut through the bread as well! At a special occasion, like a wedding banquet, women were allowed to sit beside their men (or were assigned a male companion) who would cut her meat for her and snag the passing platters to make sure she got enough to eat, since it was considered unladylike to reach or grab for food and they weren’t allowed knives at the table. (This is where we get our modern etiquette of always seating men and women alternately at the table and making sure everyone has a dinner partner.) Under normal circumstances, though, men ate in the Great Hall and women ate sequestered in their own quarters, largely because with all the drinking that went on things could get rowdy, and the best way to protect the women’s honor was to keep them far away from the rowdiness. Any woman in the Great Hall during the revelry was considered fair game, which was why most of the servers were also young men and boys.
In reply to CateS, I believe in Japan it is considered complimentary to the chef to slurp your food and make loud noises of enjoyment to show you are enjoying your food, and in China it is considered a compliment to belch loudly at the end of the meal for the same reason. (Or maybe I have the two reversed?)
Thanks for the info! I was wondering about plates since some sources describe trenchers and some the use of bread. The translation of Eramus that I looked at mentions cutting meat on a “plate” but I couldn’t imagine that each diner had his own. I suppose women weren’t allowed knives because it was indelicate BUT really it kept the men a bit safer to not have armed women at their side so it served a control function as well, didn’t it?
That was great info!!
I don’t imagine women had a lot of say. What was written above makes a lot of sense. Today it’s probably the woman of the house that has the most say at the dinner table. I had two girls so I probably had it easier than those with sons lol. Kids will get away with whatever they think they can lol. Plus, they mimic parents so if you are talking on your cell phone…
Catslady, you are so right about children mimicking their parents. I am always shocked at the people who don’t get that. There was someone I know whose boy hit my son. She went up to the boy and slapped his hand saying “we don’t hit!” Really? Okay, that’s blog for another day.
So if the women ate apart from the men, were they expected to stay quiet in their own quarters or were they allowed to congregate and carouse together? Would they have to party in secret?
Kate, I like to imagine the women having their own amusements off by themselves. I’m not sure that actually happened, but at least off in the solar they could indulge in a good gossip!
I twas probably like critique group, Kate. Hence the separate room away from the men.
Yes but were they allowed to hang out together or did they have to congregate in secret. I guess it would depend on how much of a control freak the lord in charge was. I can just imagine women sneaking out of their chambers where they were supposed to be sitting alone and instead drinking and gossiping together about the men downstairs.
Fascinating subject, Kate! Welcome to the Lair. It’s always interesting to me to see how table (and other) manners evolved.
I have a sneaky suspicion the women were doing all the serving during these mannerless meals!
That would depend on their social status. I’m sure in the lower class families, that was the case. For nobility, they would have had serving wenches.
Just like today, it probably depended on the household, some were probably pigstys with poorly mannered in habitants and others were probably kept as clean as they could. I always wondered about them throwing chicken bones down & dogs getting hold of them and choking – those lords fond of their hunting dogs probably wouldn’t have allowed that.
Diane, you’re probably right about the dogs. They were prized so the owners wouldn’t have wanted them choking on a bone.
Kate, welcome! Congrats on the release of your short story.
This is a great post. I love historical trivia.
I think I would much prefer to be in another room completely rather than dodging chicken bones, flying elbows and bodily functions!
I attended a medieval banquet and tournament at Warwick Castle when I was twelve. One of the very best times of my life. And yes, there was much tossing of food and burping. And the tournament was amazing! Or at least it was so long as you didn’t pay too much attention to the ambulances parked just out of sight waiting to haul away the wounded !
And I love the premise of this book! Can’t wait to read it!
Warwick Castle is a very cool place – the tournament must have been so much fun. I saw a tournament type show at Excalibur in Vegas back in about 1990 and was just amazed at all the stunts the (extremely good looking) riders performed right in front of our faces. I wonder if they had an ambulance standing by…